Ana Manojlović, Journalists against violence
Hello, I'm Ana Manojlović, and I will be the host of today's show. This show is organized by the BeFem Feminist Cultural Center together with the Autonomous Women's Center, the Center for Women's Rights from Podgorica and the United Women Foundation from Banja Luka.

All these organizations were part of one big regional campaign, Potpisujem.org. (I sign.org.) The campaign was really big, and the idea was to help ratify and implement the Istanbul Convention. It was, indeed, a great undertaking, with great enthusiasm underpinning it all, and many attempts to somehow bring all the countries to accept it, to understand the Istanbul Convention - what it means, why it is important, in general, for the whole region and for each country individually.

Now, in 2011, that international treaty was made available by the Council of Europe for accession and ratification by the member states. That was an attempt to stop violence against women, domestic violence ... I have to say "attempt," because all that was done somewhere better, somewhere worse, somewhere clumsily, but it is up to us not to give up, and to make sure the perpetrators get punished, to reduce domestic violence, violence against women, to a minimum.

Why are we talking about all this? This is because, ten years later, we are witnessing that it is not enough to adopt something, tackle something and say: "It is over now." No. Every right that has been won must be defended, we must try to make both the authorities and those to whom the laws apply, aware of what this is really about. One of the most drastic things that has happened recently, and that is Turkey, where, although it's the country that first signed this Convention, it happened that there are attempts to pull out of that Convention. We are still waiting to see how this will end.

This Convention is important to us, and because it is important, the tenth anniversary is also important, we are making this show today. I hope that we will have a nice discussion about it, and that we will see what the problems are in each country, individually, and in the region. Nada Golubović, from the United Women Foundation in Banja Luka, is with us, we also welcome Maja Raičević, Center for Women's Rights Podgorica, and Tanja Ignjatović from the Autonomous Women's Center, and we will include regional partners from Slovenia, Croatia and North Macedonia.

I think we should open, first of all, this discussion, by asking about how much this Convention is on slippery ground in your countries? And the question, indeed, is evocative, and if you convince me that it is not on slippery ground, then we have come a long way after these ten years. Would you like to start?

Nada Golubović, United Women Foundation from Banja Luka
So, in my country, the Convention is on shaky ground precisely because my country is very complicated. When you speak, from any country, you are talking about one law, one state body. Unfortunately, we have three legislative, three very important legislative bodies in Bosnia and Herzegovina, yet in spite of that, Bosnia and Herzegovina was the sixth country to ratify the Istanbul Convention. But has been applied to in different parts of the country in different ways, the Istanbul Convention has been accepted in different ways.

I live in Banja Luka, Republika Srpska, and I must say that, in the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Republika Srpska, they have gone the furthest as far as the Istanbul Convention is concerned. However, we adopted amendments to the Law last year, and the amendments are mostly that the focus should be on the victims themselves and not on the perpetrator, as has been the case so far in the Law. For the most part, our requirements have been met. However, now, as of the first of May this year, the Law came into force, and we see that everything we fought for is very difficult to achieve. Practically, the Law in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the first to be passed, has not changed at all, there are many shortcomings, and women's NGOs, even at the time when we were trying to push it, struggled to change the law. However, to date, it has not been changed, precisely because that part of Bosnia and Herzegovina is composed of ten cantons, and each canton must give consent for a law to be changed.

And we have the third legislative unit in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Brčko District, where I have to brag that it was the United Women's Foundation that participated in the enactment of this Law in the Brčko District. However, there are still shortcomings in that Law, we will go further and hopefully change it.

Ana Manojlović
A complicated structure of the state, complicated application of all laws, including this Convention. How is it in Serbia?

Tanja Ignjatović, Autonomous Women’s Center
Serbia is, after all, like Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro, one of the first ten signatories to this Convention. There was, at first, a serious political will, it seemed, in fact, that the Parliamentary majority and the Opposition were united in this respect, especially when one considers that the Women's Parliamentary Network at the time was united to accede to the Convention.

However, a lot of time was lost, so nothing happened, nothing was being changed, or harmonized. Then, after one serious, I must say, massacre, femicide in which five victims were killed and twenty wounded, finally, the state decided to do something. The best thing we actually got, and what was the biggest step forward, was in 2016, when the Law on Prevention of Domestic Violence was enacted and when certain criminal acts in the Criminal Code were changed.

After that, in fact, nothing more was done about harmonization. The implementation has been relatively weak, except for these urgent measures. When you ask whether the Convention is on slippery ground, the European context, unfortunately, is such that in our, especially in our countries, with these weak democracies, every international human rights treaty is on slippery ground. So, it is one thing whether you have ratified it, and quite another whether you know that it exists at all, whether you apply it, whether the judges know that it exists, whether the judges refer to it, because these Conventions are such that in the judiciary, they can be directly applied.

What we now see in Serbia is a serious attack on the content of the Convention by conservative intellectuals, whose influence should not be neglected, although they are not numerous, but they are the ones who are able to stop the reforms of the education system, who are able to kick out our educational programs on sexual abuse for children. Thus, we may at some point come to question the content of this Convention. Will it come to the point that the President withdraw his signature? We don’t know. And it is only because Serbia, in fact, is building that external image that we want to be part of the European Union.

Ana Manojlović
And Montenegro, a country of rugged mountains, how does it stand on shaky ground of the Convention?

Maja Raičević, Center for Women’s Rights, Podgorica
We... since the whole region, I would say, functions according to a system of communicating vessels, if we see that something is happening in Serbia, or Bosnia, or Macedonia, we can expect something similar in our country. Of course, such international treaties are always, somehow, the target of conservative currents, so we must constantly fight, in fact, for our public, and especially the judiciary and those who are obliged to apply the law, to understand how important the Convention is, and to apply it daily in practice.

There is officially a political will to implement the Convention, and the Council of Europe Office is helping us a lot to promote the Convention, and we have been training the judiciary on the application of the Convention for years, and we see that we already have rulings referring to the Convention. However, in some of these rulings, despite the reference to the standards of the Convention, you have a very mild penal policy, which says that, even when there is awareness of the obligation to apply the standards of the Convention, somehow this awareness prevails that domestic violence and violence over women can be tolerated, and so we somehow find ourselves facing the problem of that mild penal policy that does not act as a deterrent to perpetrators, nor does it provide adequate protection and satisfaction to victims, i.e., access to justice, so the situation is similar.

What is very important to mention that in 2017, we managed to somewhat adapt our Criminal Code to the Istanbul Convention. For the first time, when it comes to the crime of rape, a principle has been adopted relating to the absence of the victim's consent. So, in Article 204 of our Criminal Code, in paragraph 1, there is a provision that if someone does not consent to any forms of sexual behavior whatsoever, unwanted sexual behavior, that it constitutes, in fact, the crime of rape, and that helps us greatly that these acts be now treated quite differently than was the case before, although, of course, further education follows, I would say, of all who apply this law.

Ana Manojlović
It's good that you mentioned education, because that was going to be my next question. We know what the Istanbul Convention is, we know that the laws need to be harmonized with it, but how much are women in your countries aware of what this Convention means? They do not have to know its name, but do they know what their rights are, whether the law protects them, and what they should do if their rights are jeopardized?

Nada Golubović
The thing is, I must say that non-governmental organizations, since the time when we worked on this joint campaign, have been constantly working on educating the population and educating women. We in Bosnia and Herzegovina – and our SOS telephones are still run by NGOs – have constant campaigns on television. At this moment, the Public Service Radio-Television of Republika Srpska is broadcasting our video where women are being warned, especially at this time of the pandemic.

However, along with that, I also have to say that in Bosnia and Herzegovina the majority of the population lives in rural areas, and that they are very often not informed at all how these women can protect themselves. In general, women do not even know what the Council of Europe Convention on Violence against Women and Domestic Violence is, women do not know that this Convention exists no matter how much we have talked about it. And the same case is with us, like Maja reported about Montenegro, when they come to court, very often the fines are so small that they get discouraged. Other agents of protection, I have to say, and that maybe the police, who are in the front line, they are always there to do investigative actions in some way. However, since it is a criminal offense, it must be taken over by the prosecution. Unfortunately, the situation is such that the prosecution has very often rejected the cases, since we had until recently in the Law the qualification of misdemeanor and that of a criminal offense. Thus, the protective measures that should remove the perpetrator from the house are practically not being applied.

We now, in Republika Srpska, have in the new Law “a trusted person”, which I think will mean a lot to women who are victims of violence, because we will represent them before the institutions, and that is something that is legitimate, and that will, I think, help women, help create a better picture of all ways in which the state can help them. We have done a lot of education, both with the agents of protection and with women, and we are constantly working on this. However, I think that everything that we as NGOs do, the state actually does very little, and I think that what we do is the tip of the iceberg, and that, as far as education is concerned, much, much more attention should be paid in the field to women, from rural areas to urban areas, where they are not familiar with all these principles.

Ana Manojlović
To what extent does the education of non-governmental organizations reach women all over Serbia, is it reaching them, are they aware of their rights, and are they aware that no one is allowed to beat them, neither them, nor their children?

Tanja Ignjatović
It is a difficult question, it is complicated in fact, because when we say "women," and Nada just mentioned women living in rural areas, we forget that there are women who live in very different life circumstances, and that they are in different situations... they have their own personal characteristics that make them more or less vulnerable to violence, they have more power or less power. So, I believe that a good part of women who are highly educated or have secondary education, are employed, live in the city, they can get information, they know that there are SOS telephones, they will call the Autonomous Women's Center and other women's organizations from the Women's Network against violence. But what about women living in rural areas, how about women aged 55, 65 or more, how about women living in Roma settlements, how about women with disabilities, how about all those women who maybe are not in positions that allow them to easily access information, whose life experiences, personal characteristics create their distrust of institutions. If they do seek help, then what will happen?

Ana Manojlović
And do we know what this is like?

Tanja Ignjatović
We can imagine, even when we don’t have direct contact, both we who are working, and therefore getting the calls, and our colleagues, especially from Roma organizations that provide support to Roma women or women with disabilities, they know even better what it means to remove a bully from a home, from the apartment.

When you are a woman with a disability, a physical disability, dependent on who should bring you food, prepare food for you, give you your medication, etc. So, if you don't have the support for physical [care], for your life, the bully is often the only person you depend on for your daily care. If you are a Roma woman and your husband excludes you from the community that is actually his community that you came to, then the woman can only gather her things and leave, and she has nowhere to go because she cannot return to her family, for the customs are such. So, we need to see if our laws, equal for all, affect all women, men and human beings, citizens, alike, because they live in different circumstances. Therefore, it is one thing, women may even be informed, but sometimes the circumstances are such that it is not an appropriate solution for them.

The other thing is what Nada said, it is trust in institutions. The institutions must know, institutions must have solutions. Unfortunately, we do not have systematic training of people who will be future professionals at the faculties, we do not have good professional training in the workplace, we do not have good systems of support, supervision, and we have almost no supervision mechanisms, we only have formal ones. Whenever the Autonomous Women's Center complained about the internal control mechanisms in the Police, the Prosecutor's office, the Social Welfare Center, about their actions, there was no answer, so it was "No violation was done, everything was ex officio, everything was according to the rules, or with minimal admission that something is wrong. And we, then, do not trust, ordinary women do not trust that the institutions will act impartially, but I must say, since I have been training experts for years, there are still incredibly good professionals in the institutions, regardless of this terrible situation. It's just a question of ...

Ana Manojlović
Somehow, I believe that the success of all this we have here depends on all these individuals, professionals, on the enthusiasm of individuals who understand and are ready to change, and to influence ...

Tanja Ignjatović
Which should by no means be the case, because this is a systemic issue.

Ana Manojlović
Right. In Montenegro, how much do women know what the Istanbul Convention is, and if they don’t know, how much are they aware of their rights and whether they trust the institutions?

Maja Raičević
Well, I mean, there’s a lot of talk about violence against women. I believe that, like this, on a general level, of course, they know that violence is forbidden by law, that they should not endure it, but the question is how much they actually recognize it, because we often talk about physical violence, about the violence that is visible and obvious, and little is said about psychological abuse and emotional abuse, about the control that actually underlies violence, and when it comes to these phenomena, many women don’t actually realize that it is happening to them.

Ana Manojlović
They think it’s normal.

Maja Raičević
Yes. Especially since we come, after all, from a rather traditional environment, where upbringing and the state of mind still greatly influence how we will accept, in fact, the information that is offered to us. We work a lot with young people, and we see that young women have a serious interest in these topics, and also a lot of knowledge that violence is unacceptable.

However, just like Tanja said, the focus should be on the expertise of institutions, because women are not obliged to know. When they report violence, they do not have to know what the Istanbul Convention is, they do not have to know what their rights are, but the institutions have the obligation not only to know, but also to act proactively. The Convention itself binds our states to tackle the resolution of these cases with due care, to ensure an effective investigation without any unnecessary delay. This means that everyone in the system, from the police officer who goes to the scene, to the social welfare centers, prosecutors, judges, must know the standards of this Convention, and act in accordance with them, and act in these cases ex officio, not waiting for the victim to dare, for her to offer a solution, for her to propose some protective measure. So, the moment she turns up, the whole system has to be made available to her, which unfortunately is still not always the case.

Ana Manojlović
This means that they don’t know, that was my question, whether they know. Are there any organizations working with the representatives of the institutions who are in the field and who should be able to recognize this?

Maja Raičević
Well, there are, of course, women's, the few women's organizations which, due to the volume of work, I would say, are somehow quite burdened. How many women call us speaks volumes about how inefficient the institutions are, because if the institutions were more efficient, then we would have far fewer women who turn to us. For example, the Women's Rights Center currently has more than 200 beneficiaries they represent in various cases, usually with, let's not forget, the case of domestic violence or partner violence is usually accompanied by another proceeding, either for divorce or for child custody, or for division of property, etc. So, we are really, let's say, overwhelmed with an extremely large number of cases, which again, I say, tells a lot about the fact that institutions are not efficient enough, but also, fortunately, shows that women know where to turn, there are just too few of us.

Ana Manojlović
To what extent do institutions in Bosnia and Herzegovina know what their job is and what they should be doing?

Nada Golubović
Well, let me tell you, I think that the institutions know what their job is, and I may now stand a little in defense of the institutions. For example, in our country, the social welfare centers are burdened with so many different cases, social cases, because we are a country where there are a lot of unemployed, which has a lot of poor people, and I think that all our countries are like that, so these centers are terribly busy.

Well, now, I live in Banja Luka, which is a big city, and where there is a section in the social welfare center that deals especially with domestic violence, and they work very well. There are other, smaller local communities where they function very well. However, we have local communities where professionals in general - now I am talking specifically about the social welfare center - are not sensitive to these topics. We live in a country with a lot of stereotypes, in the same way as Montenegro, and I guess Serbia, as well, where so very often the institutions do not function properly in that sense.

We, as a non-governmental organization, of which there are also very few in the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, are terribly burdened, and I must say that we may in some way have already been burnt out by so much work, because except for safe houses in part of Republika Srpska, in other parts there is no state funding for safe houses, we have no other help from the state, and all the time we work, educate the police, educate judges and prosecutors, educate social welfare centers, and I think they know, but sometimes they can't even react because of that work overload. They are overwhelmed. You have local communities that are not so small in which there are two or three social workers. How can they react?

However, I must say that, in fact, the police always come to the scene, they always know what is happening on the ground. However, very often the police are not understood by the prosecution. Furthermore, the Criminal Code in our country, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, is practically based on punishing the perpetrator, and there is no protection of the victim in the court proceedings. She is ... a victim of gender-based violence, domestic violence is, in fact, a witness in court proceedings. It is a great help now that we have a trusted person, where they at least feel safe when they give their testimony, because very often the lawsuits and, afterwards, the verdicts depend on how she will testify. And that is the key question.

Ana Manojlović
You have broached this subject. In Serbia, we did have training for government representatives on how to become sensitized to this gender-based violence. How far have they come, and do the institutions, the prosecutors, the police, the social workers know what their job is and how to proceed?

Tanja Ignjatović
I must say that great progress was made when the Law on Prevention of Domestic Violence was adopted and when it began to be implemented because it regulated, among other things, the specialization of people in the police and prosecutor's office on domestic violence women, and that specialized training is provided for them. So, we now have competent police officers in the system, so it is not the patrol that evaluates and, in coordination with the service on duty, decides, but a competent police officer who is trained and who also has to follow a very strict procedure.

I think this combination - training, strict procedure and individual responsibility, the one who acts must undersign each of his decisions, and then we can question him for inaction or negligence, or lack of due diligence - greatly improved that short-term, first protection that institutions in Serbia are currently offering. Police emergency measures, extended emergency measures that depend on the prosecutor's proposal and the court's decision, and are obtained within 48 hours - I think we are the only ones in the region to have such regulations. They have contributed, which we see as important, to having a significant increase in reports of violence each year. Reports of violence are not a consequence of the increased incidence of violence, but of increased information and trust of those who report violence that the institutions will react quickly.

What do we lack? So, we stopped there, the social welfare centers in our country are too busy with all the problems, the number of cases is multiplying every year, and the number of people is decreasing. We also had a ban on employment, so that reduced the possibility for people to respond, but that is certainly not an excuse. It is a systemic problem, but it is not an excuse for not responding. We do not use all the other mechanisms we have behind that emergency intervention, and as Maja said, the victim does not necessarily know what is available to her. In fact, after that emergency intervention, we have 30 days for the three key services - the police, the prosecutor's office and the social welfare center - to consider each individual case and make a protection plan for three or six months. Behind that are the mechanisms that are available.

Unfortunately, these protection plans, according to research conducted by the Autonomous Women's Center together with the Protector of Citizens, are very modest, very scarce, do not contain the measures they should, and do not offer long-term protection in these proceedings in which the victim will be involved, or if it is not part of the procedures, then what are the other support measures - social, health, financial, educational, employment - for her, her children, so that she can recover, be empowered and independent, because the idea is to stop the violence so that the victim could go on with her life.

Ana Manojlović
Well, that was both the good and the bad news at once. So, we have moved on a little bit from the beginning, a decade later we have definitely moved from that deadlock. I now suggest that we listen briefly to Nela Pamuković from the Rosa Center for Women Victims of War in Zagreb.

Nela Pamuković, Rosa Center for Women Victims of War in Zagreb
The Center for Women Victims of War Rosa is a feminist organization that has been actively combating violence against women since '92. Even before 2012, we actively monitored the drafting of the Istanbul Convention and participated in international advocacy together with European networks. In 2012, we directed our actions primarily at the state, demanding that the Convention be signed, and later ratified. It was important to organize the pressure of the general public with the I Sign campaign. We had to first inform the public about the existence and historical significance of the Convention, and then involve citizens to put massive pressure on the Croatian government to sign and ratify by signing online, sending postcards, public actions and so on.

Namely, when we started the Signature campaign, the Convention was completely unknown and out of any focus of interest of political decision makers. It was difficult to find out which institution is competent to initiate the signing and ratification process. So, at that time, we were a big step ahead of our countries, including Croatia.

As for the question of what has been done and what has not been done so far, I would first like to say that Croatia signed the Convention on January 22, 2013 and ratified only on April 13, 2018.

From the initial invisibility of the Convention, there was an unusual reversal of the situation. Given that extreme right-wingers and Catholic fundamentalist groups and the church chose this Convention as the main target of their attacks, in order to limit women's rights and prevent the ratification of the Convention, far-right currents in the already right-wing government used the Convention in their factional power struggles. Incredible accusations against the Convention were made en masse, and demonstrations were organized in Zagreb, Split and other cities, which in 2018 almost led to the brink of a coup, and we were, of course, forced to organize counter-protests to expose this mass hysteria against women’s rights.

Very often, provisions aimed at protecting women from violence are not implemented, but are even implemented to their detriment. Partner violence continues to be prosecuted as a misdemeanor, not a criminal offense. Thus, there is an instance where a man has been fined seven times for violent behavior towards his ex-wife, but no criminal proceedings have ever been instituted against him. Apart from this, there is still a bad police practice of double arrest of victims of violence and perpetrators of violence, where, despite the conducted trainings, police officers do not recognize the real aggressor even in situations when he had previously been found guilty of violence, either under criminal, or misdemeanor charges. In such cases, it is up to the victim to defend herself against the accusations of the state authorities that were obliged to protect her. Furthermore, there is no standardized risk assessment procedure, where a form would have to be filed out, as used by other States Parties to the Istanbul Convention, while the Croatian police rely on the education of individual officers, which is clearly insufficient.

This is just a small part of the problems we are facing nowadays and are working on, and given the time constraints, I would stop with that. Thank you very much.

Ana Manojlović
How important is regional cooperation, when it comes to these important issues, for Montenegro? How much does it help you, and how much can this exchange of experiences make you happy and give you ideas on how to fight?

Maja Raičević
It is extremely important, both when it comes to the exchange of knowledge and in general, learning from larger and, I would say, perhaps more experienced organizations, and also in some personal sense, in terms of empowerment, because we often share these difficulties in work, we consult and learn from each other. For example, the Autonomous Women's Center was, I can freely say, the organization we looked up to. Also, the campaign they launched, and the whole project to promote the Istanbul Convention in general, was extremely important for us, and we even managed to accredit some training programs in Montenegro that we conducted and in which representatives of our institutions, social welfare centers, prosecutor's offices, police, etc. participared. So that cooperation is really the key and I think it helps us a lot to provide better and better support to victims, but also change the reality in which we live, and also change the practice of institutions. All in all, I believe we will continue to do so.

Ana Manojlović
How do you cooperate, what are the countries you cooperate with, with which organizations, and does this help you to remain active and persist in what you are doing?

Nada Golubović
I think that this regional cooperation is something that is extremely important, and this is an opportunity to thank the Autonomous Women's Center, which has enabled us all in the region to interconnect and to be able to work together. Without these exchanges of experiences, we would not be what we are today. I have to say that we also took the Autonomous Women's Center as a model, they were really champions in the region. After all, they are also the holders of that project, our common project that we worked on, and they never let us down. We have been let down by the state and donors, they have all left us stranded, while we, colleagues who cooperated in the region, continue to work together.

I have to say that in Bosnia and Herzegovina, we are often invited by colleagues with whom we cooperated, from Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia, and if we are to do that in Bosnia and Herzegovina, it is only owing to that regional cooperation. Then, the exchange of experiences and the exchange of knowledge - when we want to do something, we first look at the pages of our sister organizations, how they did it, so we try the same models. I guess they probably look at something we did, too. That means a lot to us. Our countries, our country Bosnia and Herzegovina, has now had its first report to the GREVIO Committee, which was set up precisely to see how the Istanbul Convention is being implemented. Colleagues from the region, Serbia and Montenegro, and Croatia have already had these experiences, their experiences have helped us a lot, and I think that this regional cooperation is very important.

And I would go back to ten years before, and even to everything that happened later, that campaign that we did in the whole region, that is, Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, was simply visible. We all have those televisions now, you can watch everything from Slovenia to Skopje, and when we saw our joint campaigns, common messages, I think it was the best campaign ever conducted, and the most visible in the whole region, and that it may have raised the level of awareness about domestic violence and violence against women in the region of these Western Balkans.

Ana Manojlović
They all look at you, they look at the Autonomous Women's Center, you are somehow their guiding star. And then you can, from your experience, from your position, explain to us what the situation is in the region? Are we all similar somehow or have some of us moved a little further?

Tanja Ignjatović
Well, now, when we talk about cooperation, it is very important to follow who has moved forward more and who has moved in the right direction, and who has gone in the wrong direction, and it is very important for us to take these good practices. It is also a warning about what is wrong with the practices, with the experiences of our colleagues, for example in Croatia, so that we can avoid our laws being changed by copying, say, the Croatian laws, bearing in mind that they are already members of the European Union, and then someone could say "Well, let's copy what they have in Croatia, because they are ahead of us." Yes, for example, we can say "Look at the SOS telephone in Ljubljana that is financed by the state, which makes  five-year contracts on financing, to provide them with some kind of financial security, and look at the national SOS telephone in Serbia that has been seized, taken away from us, by violation of two laws, from women's organizations that have been dealing with this topic for 30 years, so that the state would control the service and allegedly guarantee women a confidential conversation, and the women [who work there] , the Ministry pays them and records their conversations."

Ana Manojlović
The conversations are being recorded.

Tanja Ignjatović
So, we can say "Wait, here is the closest context to you ...", because we used to be a common state, those were the same laws, we have the acquis that is ... we all started to change our laws from the same laws and they are therefore similar. Let's say "Look at how it is in Slovenia, look at what Macedonia has done." When it is good, if Macedonia can do it, then why not also Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia or Montenegro.

So, that one level that is not only our cooperation, for which I have to say - the idea for this campaign did come from Belgrade, because it was completely clear that the Convention will be the most important event for women's organizations - but our cooperation still exists ever since the early 90's, i.e., since the late 80's, when the first SOS telephones were formed, Ljubljana, Zagreb, Belgrade, all one year after the other. Our cooperation, our organizations, existed throughout the wars, when any form of communication was very difficult, women remained connected, women's organizations remained connected, to help one another, regardless of national affiliations and our governments, and it continued naturally.

A good part of our region speaks related languages or can be mutually understood, and that connects us in some way because we communicate more easily, and I have to say that we are also very… all our organizations, that is, our six leading organizations in that project and all 29 women's organizations from six countries, we are all very well connected with the two largest European networks, one in Vienna, which deals with violence against women, and the other is the European Women's Lobby in Brussels, which deals with all topics, but also has a section for violence - we are in a constant communication, because what happens in Spain can come to us, what happens in Turkey, can come to us. Or, good solutions from Italy are very important for us, because it is all the same legal space. The European Court of Human Rights sets standards for all of us, for our states, for all members of the Council of Europe, even if we have not ratified this Convention, these are the same standards that are set for all states.

Ana Manojlović
You mentioned Ljubljana and the SOS hotline twice, and this is the perfect opportunity to announce Dubravka Hrovatič from the SOS Hotline for Women and Children Victims of Violence, an organization that was a very important part of the I Sign campaign.

Dubravka Hrovatič, SOS hotline for women and children victims of violence from Ljubljana
Hello from the SOS hotline for women and children victims of violence. We have existed in Slovenia as a non-governmental organization since 1989. Slovenia signed the Istanbul Convention in 2011 and ratified it in 2015. Why was this an important event for us? Because it is the first international document that obliges the state to strive to change social norms through its own mechanisms and to report on them to the Council of Europe.

What happened in Slovenia at that time? The Law on Prevention of Domestic Violence was adopted, which sets some minimum standards that should be guaranteed by the state in access to rights and support, and protection of all victims of domestic violence. Along with the Law on the Prevention of Domestic Violence protocols were also adopted for the conduct of institutions, cooperation and information, and a ban on corporal punishment of children. During this period, the Family Law was changed, the statute of limitations for sexual offenses was extended, and at the moment, laws in the field of rape are being adopted, namely according to the model "Only yes means yes." Accommodation in safe houses for victims of violence was provided, cooperation between institutions was provided, and this year - finally - a 24-hour national line for victims of violence.

The most important realization of this Convention is the duty of all bodies, organizations, and the state, regarding the education of all those involved in the system of assistance to victims of violence. A change in the Law alone would not bring about changes in social norms. All the movements I have been observing lately confirm what Article 3 of the Istanbul Convention states: that violence against women is gender-based violence. Thus, it is made known that, as a rule, violence against women is committed by men, because they learned such behavior in the long history of patriarchy, and that women defend themselves poorly because they were poorly educated about their rights. Our experience shows us that it is important that the state has adopted international acts and at the same time action plans for the implementation of these laws.

In the field of prevention, we notice that it is necessary to enter the contents about violence and awareness about it into the school system. That means integration at all levels of the school system: from kindergarten to college. In the area of assistance to women, it is necessary to ensure that the procedures are fast, that those who decide in the procedures have information about violence, that they do not equate it with conflict, because this can retraumatize the victims; contacts are decided regardless of the violence, and the victim is again exposed to threatening situations. Expert opinions also do not consider domestic violence as an important factor in deciding on contact with children.

In the areas of prosecution and protection measures, greater orientation towards the elimination of perpetrators and control over the implementation of these procedures is needed. It should be mandatory to refer perpetrators of violence to social skills trainings. Withdrawal from the Istanbul Convention would mean weaker protection for victims of violence. Given the number of increased femicides, and reports of sexual abuse, that move would be quite irresponsible on the part of the state.

Ana Manojlović
We have heard how much women know, how much the authorities know about the Convention, and now, can you give us some specific examples from your country when it comes to violating women's rights or promoting violations of women's rights by government officials or some public figures?

Maja Raičević
Of course. We recently had a hate speech in public, extremely sexist, the protagonist of the whole story was a well-known lawyer who is close to the Serbian Orthodox Church. In doing so, I emphasize this, because in this way he, in fact, enjoys a kind of protection of the public and public support, and in his statements, there were elements of crime, since he also mentioned sexual violence in the context of something that is condoned, that is acceptable, that can be tolerated, etc.

However, what is also a problem is a kind of structural discrimination, I would say, of women who report violence by the very inaction of institutions, because if institutions fail to act ex officio or to apply the principle of due diligence and timely response to violence, they engage in some kind of institutional discrimination, and many women complain to us precisely about not getting that timely response and a lot of understanding from those who are there to protect them. So, unfortunately, these examples are numerous.

I would say that one example is the qualification of acts related to violence against women and domestic violence. In Montenegro, for example, and that speaks a lot about this tolerant attitude towards violence, about 2000 cases are processed daily as a misdemeanor - "daily", sorry, annually ...

Ana Manojlović
Now I’m worried.

Maja Raičević
Yes. It is a small country, it would be too much, but there are too many of them as it is, so only 10% go to criminal proceedings and are treated as a criminal offense, which again indicates that institutions are quite tolerant of violence. So, well, I mean, unfortunately, there are always such examples.

Ana Manojlović
Do you have in public any visible violations of women's rights, inappropriate language, insults, anything that could be understood as threatening?

Nada Golubović
Well, I'll just say, it's enough that in the part of Bosnia and Herzegovina where Serbian is spoken, the ijekavian Serbian, where I live, there is no female gender at all. Therefore, I think they are committing systemic violence ...

Ana Manojlović
What do you mean by there is no female gender?

Nada Golubović
There are no female forms. We do not have a female President (female form of the word, translator’s remark) we have a President. The same goes for Heads of Departments. I don’t know… has this changed in Serbia?

Ana Manojlović
We’ve been trying to change this.

Nada Golubović
But with us it is pervasive. And if you tell, say, our President of the entity of Republika Srpska that she is the female President you even insult her in some way. Because simply that part of the Serbian language does not refer to some ... she can be a female cleaner, but she can be neither female President nor female Head of Department. It is flagrant discrimination in public discourse. I think it is similar in the Bosnian language. There are only dual terms in the Croatian language. And since we live in a state where there are three constituent peoples, I think that in all three constituent peoples the religious orientation is a priority, and we have seen that the Church simply considers a female being less valuable, so that is clear cut discrimination.

Secondly, generally, in the highest positions in the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, we have never had a female President but we have always had a male President. The cantons are also mostly dominated by men. We have a female President in the Republika Srpska, however, women who are in high positions, in any part of the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, simply do not treat the women's issue as a priority issue. In general, in order to reach these high positions, they take on the roles that their male colleagues have, and I think that this is already something that is visible at the highest level as absolutely clear discrimination against women in society.

Ana Manojlović
What is the situation like in Serbia?

Tanja Ignjatović
Well, it is similar. So, we can talk about what the image is, what representation in the media and the public is when it comes to women, what Nada talked about, and what is actually support for women and protection of their rights by members of institutions. If, for example, I had to opt for some violations that are obvious, it is that, for example, Serbia has expressed some reservations and extended those reservation for damages, that Serbia does not recognize the damage caused by violence, as a state that has committed itself to preventing violence from occurring and its harmful consequences for women, and this shows a willingness to approach this problem with due care and, in fact, to take responsibility for inaction and adverse conduct. So, the state has not taken responsibility, that responsibility is declarative for the time being.

Serbia has a serious problem, nothing has changed regarding the most serious acts of violence, that is, attempted murder and murder. The number of women killed on an annual basis is not decreasing significantly, it is only lower in those years when we did not have a mass murder, when a larger number of women from one family were killed. Unfortunately, I have to say that the weakest point at the moment is actually supporting women. So, there are no specialized support services well distributed, we still do not have crisis centers for women victims of rape, we still have the weakest procedure, the most difficult procedure when it comes to victims of sexual violence. Here, since the beginning of this year, Serbia has had four serious, big scandals involving sexual abuse, sexual harassment and rape. So, it remains to be seen whether we will systematically improve the way it is handled. We have not changed anything in the education of young people ...

Ana Manojlović
Before you go on about educating young people, I just wanted to ask you, is there something in public life, in public discourse, in the media, related to public figures, and even those in power, that you could point out as an elementary violation women's rights, human rights?

Tanja Ignjatović
Of course. There is something that I believe is the abuse and, in fact, the corruption of women who are in public office, to openly put themselves on the side of those who are suspected of being bullies and abusers, procurers, those who have abused children. So, the least those public figures ought to do is not make statements about it, at least in the sense of not harming the victims. We have an open political classification here. So, those who belong to the same political option, they always in some way, even with neutral statements, protect the suspects of abuse, and when you have a country where such institutions are so weak, it is very dangerous, because what public figures say, that also determines what the institutions will do. Here you have a particular, specific abuse of women, so women are rushing to speak out against the women victims, while protecting the suspects, or those against whom some proceedings have been initiated, with a very clear, calculated policy ...

Ana Manojlović
In this way they influence public opinion.

Tanja Ignjatović
In this way they influence public opinion. In this way, you actually reduce trust in what the victim is saying - when you turn a woman against another woman. If it were men, everyone would say, "Well, yes, they show solidarity on masculine lines." And this is how, in fact, women attack women. In Serbia, it is a mechanism that is used very, very much, because we no longer have this shortage of women in positions. For us, women are in key positions - we have the Prime Minister and the Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, and 40% of women are in the Parliament, but whenever a woman needs to be attacked, other women do it.

Ana Manojlović
We go back to the problem that my colleague also pointed out, and that is that women do not behave like women, trying to protect women, but take on the male roles they had ...

Tanja Ignjatović
That is true, but it is because their positions, at this moment, did not arise autochthonously. They are there because some men have allowed, and chosen them to be there. So, it is this corruption and it is, in fact, undermining the autonomy of each person.

Ana Manojlović
I suggest that we now hear what the situation is like in North Macedonia, and Savka Todorovska from the National Council for Gender Equality will tell us that.

Savka Todorovska, National Council for Gender Equality from Skopje
The Istanbul Convention encourages better policies, services and debates regarding the violence experienced by women and girls, as well as ways in which they can be helped and supported. The I Sign.org campaign contributed and pressured the authorities to ratify the Istanbul Convention in the Republic of North Macedonia, which made important, major steps to increase the protection of women from domestic and gender-based violence, as well as to influence the sensitization of decision-makers. for violence against women and gender-based violence.

At the same time, the impact on the public regarding violence is very important, as well as the basic violation of human rights. Following the ratification of the Istanbul Convention, in December 2017, government institutions developed an action plan for the implementation of the Convention for the Prevention and Combating of Violence against Women and Girls, as well as against Domestic Violence. A new Law has been prepared and measures have been improved, while an institutional system for the protection of victims has been established.

The harmonization of national laws with the provisions of the Istanbul Convention has been established, and amendments to all other laws related to this issue have been drafted. At the same time, standards for the provision of specialized services to victims of gender-based violence have been developed, as well as standard operating procedures in accordance with the Istanbul Convention.

In 2012, together with all of you, we began to work intensively to change and improve the situation related to violence against women, to increase the institutional responsibility and protection of victims, and to help women get out of the position of victims. With the change of the political context, the message of the I sign.org campaign was heard and a large part was filled with the adoption and improvement of the Law, as well as changes in perception and overcoming stereotypes about the position of women in the family and society.

Certainly, some questions and tasks remain open, especially regarding the full implementation of the Law and the Istanbul Convention, as well as regarding the professional attitude of institutional officials and their full sensibility and responsibility in working with victims.

Ana Manojlović
If you had to single out one of the weakest points now, which one would you choose? What is it that needs to be worked on as a priority in the next ten years in order for the situation to drastically improve?

Maja Raičević
Well, I think the biggest change, which is also the weakest point, would be the improvement of protection and support for victims. This means the urgent and effective application of the protective measures available to us, such as the protective measure of removal from the apartment, prohibition on approaching, on harassment and stalking, and all the support that should accompany the actions of institutions in such cases, from psychosocial support to economic support. Social housing service, for example, for victims that would be especially important in these pandemic conditions, when a large number of women have been disproportionately affected by the consequences, and lost their jobs and have no income, and at the same time a large number of them, at least in Montenegro, and I believe also in the region, do not dispose of their own real estate. So, for that matter, in order for the victim to be able to work on her autonomy, to live independently, first of all, that protection and support must be a priority in the work of institutions.

Ana Manojlović
Tanja? One point?

Tanja Ignjatović
All that Maja said, let me just add that this general support for women victims of violence must last for at least two years, for some three years, in order for them to recover and become independent. So, it can't be three months old, and it must include their children. Children witness violence, children victims of domestic violence are invisible to the system, children endure a lot and suffer a lot.

Nada Golubović
My colleagues have said it all now. I might now single out support for women within safe houses, that the state should let NGOs run safe houses and provide them with funding, so that women can also have the opportunity to enter a safe house without notification from social welfare centers, and that the state  support them. I think that now applies to all of us, not to repeat what my colleagues said.

Ana Manojlović
So, to summarize - these are victims, empower victims, empower children, pay special attention to children, and safe houses

Nada Golubović
... that should be run by NGOs.

Ana Manojlović
That will be run by NGOs, of course.

Maja Raičević
Autonomous.

Ana Manojlović
It is the only way to have everything functioning as it should be.

Thank you for speaking for this episode of BeFem Talks, thank you for fighting for years. I really want you to continue to cooperate, not to give up and that the next time we meet, we won’t be talking about the fact that we have to defend our rights by all means, but that we are aware that we have reached something that is taken for granted and is being implemented by the institutions.

Tanja Ignjatović, Nada Golubović, Maja Raičević – Thank you.

Ana Manojlović, Journalists against violence
Hello, I'm Ana Manojlović, and I will be the host of today's show. This show is organized by the BeFem Feminist Cultural Center together with the Autonomous Women's Center, the Center for Women's Rights from Podgorica and the United Women Foundation from Banja Luka.

All these organizations were part of one big regional campaign, Potpisujem.org. (I sign.org.) The campaign was really big, and the idea was to help ratify and implement the Istanbul Convention. It was, indeed, a great undertaking, with great enthusiasm underpinning it all, and many attempts to somehow bring all the countries to accept it, to understand the Istanbul Convention - what it means, why it is important, in general, for the whole region and for each country individually.

Now, in 2011, that international treaty was made available by the Council of Europe for accession and ratification by the member states. That was an attempt to stop violence against women, domestic violence ... I have to say "attempt," because all that was done somewhere better, somewhere worse, somewhere clumsily, but it is up to us not to give up, and to make sure the perpetrators get punished, to reduce domestic violence, violence against women, to a minimum.

Why are we talking about all this? This is because, ten years later, we are witnessing that it is not enough to adopt something, tackle something and say: "It is over now." No. Every right that has been won must be defended, we must try to make both the authorities and those to whom the laws apply, aware of what this is really about. One of the most drastic things that has happened recently, and that is Turkey, where, although it's the country that first signed this Convention, it happened that there are attempts to pull out of that Convention. We are still waiting to see how this will end.

This Convention is important to us, and because it is important, the tenth anniversary is also important, we are making this show today. I hope that we will have a nice discussion about it, and that we will see what the problems are in each country, individually, and in the region. Nada Golubović, from the United Women Foundation in Banja Luka, is with us, we also welcome Maja Raičević, Center for Women's Rights Podgorica, and Tanja Ignjatović from the Autonomous Women's Center, and we will include regional partners from Slovenia, Croatia and North Macedonia.

I think we should open, first of all, this discussion, by asking about how much this Convention is on slippery ground in your countries? And the question, indeed, is evocative, and if you convince me that it is not on slippery ground, then we have come a long way after these ten years. Would you like to start?

Nada Golubović, United Women Foundation from Banja Luka
So, in my country, the Convention is on shaky ground precisely because my country is very complicated. When you speak, from any country, you are talking about one law, one state body. Unfortunately, we have three legislative, three very important legislative bodies in Bosnia and Herzegovina, yet in spite of that, Bosnia and Herzegovina was the sixth country to ratify the Istanbul Convention. But has been applied to in different parts of the country in different ways, the Istanbul Convention has been accepted in different ways.

I live in Banja Luka, Republika Srpska, and I must say that, in the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Republika Srpska, they have gone the furthest as far as the Istanbul Convention is concerned. However, we adopted amendments to the Law last year, and the amendments are mostly that the focus should be on the victims themselves and not on the perpetrator, as has been the case so far in the Law. For the most part, our requirements have been met. However, now, as of the first of May this year, the Law came into force, and we see that everything we fought for is very difficult to achieve. Practically, the Law in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the first to be passed, has not changed at all, there are many shortcomings, and women's NGOs, even at the time when we were trying to push it, struggled to change the law. However, to date, it has not been changed, precisely because that part of Bosnia and Herzegovina is composed of ten cantons, and each canton must give consent for a law to be changed.

And we have the third legislative unit in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Brčko District, where I have to brag that it was the United Women's Foundation that participated in the enactment of this Law in the Brčko District. However, there are still shortcomings in that Law, we will go further and hopefully change it.

Ana Manojlović
A complicated structure of the state, complicated application of all laws, including this Convention. How is it in Serbia?

Tanja Ignjatović, Autonomous Women’s Center
Serbia is, after all, like Bosnia and Herzegovina and Montenegro, one of the first ten signatories to this Convention. There was, at first, a serious political will, it seemed, in fact, that the Parliamentary majority and the Opposition were united in this respect, especially when one considers that the Women's Parliamentary Network at the time was united to accede to the Convention.

However, a lot of time was lost, so nothing happened, nothing was being changed, or harmonized. Then, after one serious, I must say, massacre, femicide in which five victims were killed and twenty wounded, finally, the state decided to do something. The best thing we actually got, and what was the biggest step forward, was in 2016, when the Law on Prevention of Domestic Violence was enacted and when certain criminal acts in the Criminal Code were changed.

After that, in fact, nothing more was done about harmonization. The implementation has been relatively weak, except for these urgent measures. When you ask whether the Convention is on slippery ground, the European context, unfortunately, is such that in our, especially in our countries, with these weak democracies, every international human rights treaty is on slippery ground. So, it is one thing whether you have ratified it, and quite another whether you know that it exists at all, whether you apply it, whether the judges know that it exists, whether the judges refer to it, because these Conventions are such that in the judiciary, they can be directly applied.

What we now see in Serbia is a serious attack on the content of the Convention by conservative intellectuals, whose influence should not be neglected, although they are not numerous, but they are the ones who are able to stop the reforms of the education system, who are able to kick out our educational programs on sexual abuse for children. Thus, we may at some point come to question the content of this Convention. Will it come to the point that the President withdraw his signature? We don’t know. And it is only because Serbia, in fact, is building that external image that we want to be part of the European Union.

Ana Manojlović
And Montenegro, a country of rugged mountains, how does it stand on shaky ground of the Convention?

Maja Raičević, Center for Women’s Rights, Podgorica
We... since the whole region, I would say, functions according to a system of communicating vessels, if we see that something is happening in Serbia, or Bosnia, or Macedonia, we can expect something similar in our country. Of course, such international treaties are always, somehow, the target of conservative currents, so we must constantly fight, in fact, for our public, and especially the judiciary and those who are obliged to apply the law, to understand how important the Convention is, and to apply it daily in practice.

There is officially a political will to implement the Convention, and the Council of Europe Office is helping us a lot to promote the Convention, and we have been training the judiciary on the application of the Convention for years, and we see that we already have rulings referring to the Convention. However, in some of these rulings, despite the reference to the standards of the Convention, you have a very mild penal policy, which says that, even when there is awareness of the obligation to apply the standards of the Convention, somehow this awareness prevails that domestic violence and violence over women can be tolerated, and so we somehow find ourselves facing the problem of that mild penal policy that does not act as a deterrent to perpetrators, nor does it provide adequate protection and satisfaction to victims, i.e., access to justice, so the situation is similar.

What is very important to mention that in 2017, we managed to somewhat adapt our Criminal Code to the Istanbul Convention. For the first time, when it comes to the crime of rape, a principle has been adopted relating to the absence of the victim's consent. So, in Article 204 of our Criminal Code, in paragraph 1, there is a provision that if someone does not consent to any forms of sexual behavior whatsoever, unwanted sexual behavior, that it constitutes, in fact, the crime of rape, and that helps us greatly that these acts be now treated quite differently than was the case before, although, of course, further education follows, I would say, of all who apply this law.

Ana Manojlović
It's good that you mentioned education, because that was going to be my next question. We know what the Istanbul Convention is, we know that the laws need to be harmonized with it, but how much are women in your countries aware of what this Convention means? They do not have to know its name, but do they know what their rights are, whether the law protects them, and what they should do if their rights are jeopardized?

Nada Golubović
The thing is, I must say that non-governmental organizations, since the time when we worked on this joint campaign, have been constantly working on educating the population and educating women. We in Bosnia and Herzegovina – and our SOS telephones are still run by NGOs – have constant campaigns on television. At this moment, the Public Service Radio-Television of Republika Srpska is broadcasting our video where women are being warned, especially at this time of the pandemic.

However, along with that, I also have to say that in Bosnia and Herzegovina the majority of the population lives in rural areas, and that they are very often not informed at all how these women can protect themselves. In general, women do not even know what the Council of Europe Convention on Violence against Women and Domestic Violence is, women do not know that this Convention exists no matter how much we have talked about it. And the same case is with us, like Maja reported about Montenegro, when they come to court, very often the fines are so small that they get discouraged. Other agents of protection, I have to say, and that maybe the police, who are in the front line, they are always there to do investigative actions in some way. However, since it is a criminal offense, it must be taken over by the prosecution. Unfortunately, the situation is such that the prosecution has very often rejected the cases, since we had until recently in the Law the qualification of misdemeanor and that of a criminal offense. Thus, the protective measures that should remove the perpetrator from the house are practically not being applied.

We now, in Republika Srpska, have in the new Law “a trusted person”, which I think will mean a lot to women who are victims of violence, because we will represent them before the institutions, and that is something that is legitimate, and that will, I think, help women, help create a better picture of all ways in which the state can help them. We have done a lot of education, both with the agents of protection and with women, and we are constantly working on this. However, I think that everything that we as NGOs do, the state actually does very little, and I think that what we do is the tip of the iceberg, and that, as far as education is concerned, much, much more attention should be paid in the field to women, from rural areas to urban areas, where they are not familiar with all these principles.

Ana Manojlović
To what extent does the education of non-governmental organizations reach women all over Serbia, is it reaching them, are they aware of their rights, and are they aware that no one is allowed to beat them, neither them, nor their children?

Tanja Ignjatović
It is a difficult question, it is complicated in fact, because when we say "women," and Nada just mentioned women living in rural areas, we forget that there are women who live in very different life circumstances, and that they are in different situations... they have their own personal characteristics that make them more or less vulnerable to violence, they have more power or less power. So, I believe that a good part of women who are highly educated or have secondary education, are employed, live in the city, they can get information, they know that there are SOS telephones, they will call the Autonomous Women's Center and other women's organizations from the Women's Network against violence. But what about women living in rural areas, how about women aged 55, 65 or more, how about women living in Roma settlements, how about women with disabilities, how about all those women who maybe are not in positions that allow them to easily access information, whose life experiences, personal characteristics create their distrust of institutions. If they do seek help, then what will happen?

Ana Manojlović
And do we know what this is like?

Tanja Ignjatović
We can imagine, even when we don’t have direct contact, both we who are working, and therefore getting the calls, and our colleagues, especially from Roma organizations that provide support to Roma women or women with disabilities, they know even better what it means to remove a bully from a home, from the apartment.

When you are a woman with a disability, a physical disability, dependent on who should bring you food, prepare food for you, give you your medication, etc. So, if you don't have the support for physical [care], for your life, the bully is often the only person you depend on for your daily care. If you are a Roma woman and your husband excludes you from the community that is actually his community that you came to, then the woman can only gather her things and leave, and she has nowhere to go because she cannot return to her family, for the customs are such. So, we need to see if our laws, equal for all, affect all women, men and human beings, citizens, alike, because they live in different circumstances. Therefore, it is one thing, women may even be informed, but sometimes the circumstances are such that it is not an appropriate solution for them.

The other thing is what Nada said, it is trust in institutions. The institutions must know, institutions must have solutions. Unfortunately, we do not have systematic training of people who will be future professionals at the faculties, we do not have good professional training in the workplace, we do not have good systems of support, supervision, and we have almost no supervision mechanisms, we only have formal ones. Whenever the Autonomous Women's Center complained about the internal control mechanisms in the Police, the Prosecutor's office, the Social Welfare Center, about their actions, there was no answer, so it was "No violation was done, everything was ex officio, everything was according to the rules, or with minimal admission that something is wrong. And we, then, do not trust, ordinary women do not trust that the institutions will act impartially, but I must say, since I have been training experts for years, there are still incredibly good professionals in the institutions, regardless of this terrible situation. It's just a question of ...

Ana Manojlović
Somehow, I believe that the success of all this we have here depends on all these individuals, professionals, on the enthusiasm of individuals who understand and are ready to change, and to influence ...

Tanja Ignjatović
Which should by no means be the case, because this is a systemic issue.

Ana Manojlović
Right. In Montenegro, how much do women know what the Istanbul Convention is, and if they don’t know, how much are they aware of their rights and whether they trust the institutions?

Maja Raičević
Well, I mean, there’s a lot of talk about violence against women. I believe that, like this, on a general level, of course, they know that violence is forbidden by law, that they should not endure it, but the question is how much they actually recognize it, because we often talk about physical violence, about the violence that is visible and obvious, and little is said about psychological abuse and emotional abuse, about the control that actually underlies violence, and when it comes to these phenomena, many women don’t actually realize that it is happening to them.

Ana Manojlović
They think it’s normal.

Maja Raičević
Yes. Especially since we come, after all, from a rather traditional environment, where upbringing and the state of mind still greatly influence how we will accept, in fact, the information that is offered to us. We work a lot with young people, and we see that young women have a serious interest in these topics, and also a lot of knowledge that violence is unacceptable.

However, just like Tanja said, the focus should be on the expertise of institutions, because women are not obliged to know. When they report violence, they do not have to know what the Istanbul Convention is, they do not have to know what their rights are, but the institutions have the obligation not only to know, but also to act proactively. The Convention itself binds our states to tackle the resolution of these cases with due care, to ensure an effective investigation without any unnecessary delay. This means that everyone in the system, from the police officer who goes to the scene, to the social welfare centers, prosecutors, judges, must know the standards of this Convention, and act in accordance with them, and act in these cases ex officio, not waiting for the victim to dare, for her to offer a solution, for her to propose some protective measure. So, the moment she turns up, the whole system has to be made available to her, which unfortunately is still not always the case.

Ana Manojlović
This means that they don’t know, that was my question, whether they know. Are there any organizations working with the representatives of the institutions who are in the field and who should be able to recognize this?

Maja Raičević
Well, there are, of course, women's, the few women's organizations which, due to the volume of work, I would say, are somehow quite burdened. How many women call us speaks volumes about how inefficient the institutions are, because if the institutions were more efficient, then we would have far fewer women who turn to us. For example, the Women's Rights Center currently has more than 200 beneficiaries they represent in various cases, usually with, let's not forget, the case of domestic violence or partner violence is usually accompanied by another proceeding, either for divorce or for child custody, or for division of property, etc. So, we are really, let's say, overwhelmed with an extremely large number of cases, which again, I say, tells a lot about the fact that institutions are not efficient enough, but also, fortunately, shows that women know where to turn, there are just too few of us.

Ana Manojlović
To what extent do institutions in Bosnia and Herzegovina know what their job is and what they should be doing?

Nada Golubović
Well, let me tell you, I think that the institutions know what their job is, and I may now stand a little in defense of the institutions. For example, in our country, the social welfare centers are burdened with so many different cases, social cases, because we are a country where there are a lot of unemployed, which has a lot of poor people, and I think that all our countries are like that, so these centers are terribly busy.

Well, now, I live in Banja Luka, which is a big city, and where there is a section in the social welfare center that deals especially with domestic violence, and they work very well. There are other, smaller local communities where they function very well. However, we have local communities where professionals in general - now I am talking specifically about the social welfare center - are not sensitive to these topics. We live in a country with a lot of stereotypes, in the same way as Montenegro, and I guess Serbia, as well, where so very often the institutions do not function properly in that sense.

We, as a non-governmental organization, of which there are also very few in the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, are terribly burdened, and I must say that we may in some way have already been burnt out by so much work, because except for safe houses in part of Republika Srpska, in other parts there is no state funding for safe houses, we have no other help from the state, and all the time we work, educate the police, educate judges and prosecutors, educate social welfare centers, and I think they know, but sometimes they can't even react because of that work overload. They are overwhelmed. You have local communities that are not so small in which there are two or three social workers. How can they react?

However, I must say that, in fact, the police always come to the scene, they always know what is happening on the ground. However, very often the police are not understood by the prosecution. Furthermore, the Criminal Code in our country, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, is practically based on punishing the perpetrator, and there is no protection of the victim in the court proceedings. She is ... a victim of gender-based violence, domestic violence is, in fact, a witness in court proceedings. It is a great help now that we have a trusted person, where they at least feel safe when they give their testimony, because very often the lawsuits and, afterwards, the verdicts depend on how she will testify. And that is the key question.

Ana Manojlović
You have broached this subject. In Serbia, we did have training for government representatives on how to become sensitized to this gender-based violence. How far have they come, and do the institutions, the prosecutors, the police, the social workers know what their job is and how to proceed?

Tanja Ignjatović
I must say that great progress was made when the Law on Prevention of Domestic Violence was adopted and when it began to be implemented because it regulated, among other things, the specialization of people in the police and prosecutor's office on domestic violence women, and that specialized training is provided for them. So, we now have competent police officers in the system, so it is not the patrol that evaluates and, in coordination with the service on duty, decides, but a competent police officer who is trained and who also has to follow a very strict procedure.

I think this combination - training, strict procedure and individual responsibility, the one who acts must undersign each of his decisions, and then we can question him for inaction or negligence, or lack of due diligence - greatly improved that short-term, first protection that institutions in Serbia are currently offering. Police emergency measures, extended emergency measures that depend on the prosecutor's proposal and the court's decision, and are obtained within 48 hours - I think we are the only ones in the region to have such regulations. They have contributed, which we see as important, to having a significant increase in reports of violence each year. Reports of violence are not a consequence of the increased incidence of violence, but of increased information and trust of those who report violence that the institutions will react quickly.

What do we lack? So, we stopped there, the social welfare centers in our country are too busy with all the problems, the number of cases is multiplying every year, and the number of people is decreasing. We also had a ban on employment, so that reduced the possibility for people to respond, but that is certainly not an excuse. It is a systemic problem, but it is not an excuse for not responding. We do not use all the other mechanisms we have behind that emergency intervention, and as Maja said, the victim does not necessarily know what is available to her. In fact, after that emergency intervention, we have 30 days for the three key services - the police, the prosecutor's office and the social welfare center - to consider each individual case and make a protection plan for three or six months. Behind that are the mechanisms that are available.

Unfortunately, these protection plans, according to research conducted by the Autonomous Women's Center together with the Protector of Citizens, are very modest, very scarce, do not contain the measures they should, and do not offer long-term protection in these proceedings in which the victim will be involved, or if it is not part of the procedures, then what are the other support measures - social, health, financial, educational, employment - for her, her children, so that she can recover, be empowered and independent, because the idea is to stop the violence so that the victim could go on with her life.

Ana Manojlović
Well, that was both the good and the bad news at once. So, we have moved on a little bit from the beginning, a decade later we have definitely moved from that deadlock. I now suggest that we listen briefly to Nela Pamuković from the Rosa Center for Women Victims of War in Zagreb.

Nela Pamuković, Rosa Center for Women Victims of War in Zagreb
The Center for Women Victims of War Rosa is a feminist organization that has been actively combating violence against women since '92. Even before 2012, we actively monitored the drafting of the Istanbul Convention and participated in international advocacy together with European networks. In 2012, we directed our actions primarily at the state, demanding that the Convention be signed, and later ratified. It was important to organize the pressure of the general public with the I Sign campaign. We had to first inform the public about the existence and historical significance of the Convention, and then involve citizens to put massive pressure on the Croatian government to sign and ratify by signing online, sending postcards, public actions and so on.

Namely, when we started the Signature campaign, the Convention was completely unknown and out of any focus of interest of political decision makers. It was difficult to find out which institution is competent to initiate the signing and ratification process. So, at that time, we were a big step ahead of our countries, including Croatia.

As for the question of what has been done and what has not been done so far, I would first like to say that Croatia signed the Convention on January 22, 2013 and ratified only on April 13, 2018.

From the initial invisibility of the Convention, there was an unusual reversal of the situation. Given that extreme right-wingers and Catholic fundamentalist groups and the church chose this Convention as the main target of their attacks, in order to limit women's rights and prevent the ratification of the Convention, far-right currents in the already right-wing government used the Convention in their factional power struggles. Incredible accusations against the Convention were made en masse, and demonstrations were organized in Zagreb, Split and other cities, which in 2018 almost led to the brink of a coup, and we were, of course, forced to organize counter-protests to expose this mass hysteria against women’s rights.

Fortunately, political pressure from the European Union and the Council of Europe helped the ratification of the Convention in the end. As is customary, however, there is now a real struggle to make the standards of the Convention a reality. Experience shows that Croatia has not actually implemented the Istanbul Convention until today, even to the point that the experiences from fifteen years ago in our work with victims of violence were in some respects more positive than today. First of all, the state and its institutions do not recognize gender-based violence as one that is directed against women because they are women.It is persistently sought to objectify violence by not talking about the fact that women are disproportionately affected by severe forms of violence such as partner violence, domestic violence, sexual harassment, rape and other forms of violence that constitute a serious violation of human rights.

Very often, provisions aimed at protecting women from violence are not implemented, but are even implemented to their detriment. Partner violence continues to be prosecuted as a misdemeanor, not a criminal offense. Thus, there is an instance where a man has been fined seven times for violent behavior towards his ex-wife, but no criminal proceedings have ever been instituted against him. Apart from this, there is still a bad police practice of double arrest of victims of violence and perpetrators of violence, where, despite the conducted trainings, police officers do not recognize the real aggressor even in situations when he had previously been found guilty of violence, either under criminal, or misdemeanor charges. In such cases, it is up to the victim to defend herself against the accusations of the state authorities that were obliged to protect her. Furthermore, there is no standardized risk assessment procedure, where a form would have to be filed out, as used by other States Parties to the Istanbul Convention, while the Croatian police rely on the education of individual officers, which is clearly insufficient.

This is just a small part of the problems we are facing nowadays and are working on, and given the time constraints, I would stop with that. Thank you very much.

Ana Manojlović
How important is regional cooperation, when it comes to these important issues, for Montenegro? How much does it help you, and how much can this exchange of experiences make you happy and give you ideas on how to fight?

Maja Raičević
It is extremely important, both when it comes to the exchange of knowledge and in general, learning from larger and, I would say, perhaps more experienced organizations, and also in some personal sense, in terms of empowerment, because we often share these difficulties in work, we consult and learn from each other. For example, the Autonomous Women's Center was, I can freely say, the organization we looked up to. Also, the campaign they launched, and the whole project to promote the Istanbul Convention in general, was extremely important for us, and we even managed to accredit some training programs in Montenegro that we conducted and in which representatives of our institutions, social welfare centers, prosecutor's offices, police, etc. participared. So that cooperation is really the key and I think it helps us a lot to provide better and better support to victims, but also change the reality in which we live, and also change the practice of institutions. All in all, I believe we will continue to do so.

Ana Manojlović
How do you cooperate, what are the countries you cooperate with, with which organizations, and does this help you to remain active and persist in what you are doing?

Nada Golubović
I think that this regional cooperation is something that is extremely important, and this is an opportunity to thank the Autonomous Women's Center, which has enabled us all in the region to interconnect and to be able to work together. Without these exchanges of experiences, we would not be what we are today. I have to say that we also took the Autonomous Women's Center as a model, they were really champions in the region. After all, they are also the holders of that project, our common project that we worked on, and they never let us down. We have been let down by the state and donors, they have all left us stranded, while we, colleagues who cooperated in the region, continue to work together.

I have to say that in Bosnia and Herzegovina, we are often invited by colleagues with whom we cooperated, from Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia, and if we are to do that in Bosnia and Herzegovina, it is only owing to that regional cooperation. Then, the exchange of experiences and the exchange of knowledge - when we want to do something, we first look at the pages of our sister organizations, how they did it, so we try the same models. I guess they probably look at something we did, too. That means a lot to us. Our countries, our country Bosnia and Herzegovina, has now had its first report to the GREVIO Committee, which was set up precisely to see how the Istanbul Convention is being implemented. Colleagues from the region, Serbia and Montenegro, and Croatia have already had these experiences, their experiences have helped us a lot, and I think that this regional cooperation is very important.

And I would go back to ten years before, and even to everything that happened later, that campaign that we did in the whole region, that is, Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia, was simply visible. We all have those televisions now, you can watch everything from Slovenia to Skopje, and when we saw our joint campaigns, common messages, I think it was the best campaign ever conducted, and the most visible in the whole region, and that it may have raised the level of awareness about domestic violence and violence against women in the region of these Western Balkans.

Ana Manojlović
They all look at you, they look at the Autonomous Women's Center, you are somehow their guiding star. And then you can, from your experience, from your position, explain to us what the situation is in the region? Are we all similar somehow or have some of us moved a little further?

Tanja Ignjatović
Well, now, when we talk about cooperation, it is very important to follow who has moved forward more and who has moved in the right direction, and who has gone in the wrong direction, and it is very important for us to take these good practices. It is also a warning about what is wrong with the practices, with the experiences of our colleagues, for example in Croatia, so that we can avoid our laws being changed by copying, say, the Croatian laws, bearing in mind that they are already members of the European Union, and then someone could say "Well, let's copy what they have in Croatia, because they are ahead of us." Yes, for example, we can say "Look at the SOS telephone in Ljubljana that is financed by the state, which makes  five-year contracts on financing, to provide them with some kind of financial security, and look at the national SOS telephone in Serbia that has been seized, taken away from us, by violation of two laws, from women's organizations that have been dealing with this topic for 30 years, so that the state would control the service and allegedly guarantee women a confidential conversation, and the women [who work there] , the Ministry pays them and records their conversations."

Ana Manojlović
The conversations are being recorded.

Tanja Ignjatović
So, we can say "Wait, here is the closest context to you ...", because we used to be a common state, those were the same laws, we have the acquis that is ... we all started to change our laws from the same laws and they are therefore similar. Let's say "Look at how it is in Slovenia, look at what Macedonia has done." When it is good, if Macedonia can do it, then why not also Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia or Montenegro.

So, that one level that is not only our cooperation, for which I have to say - the idea for this campaign did come from Belgrade, because it was completely clear that the Convention will be the most important event for women's organizations - but our cooperation still exists ever since the early 90's, i.e., since the late 80's, when the first SOS telephones were formed, Ljubljana, Zagreb, Belgrade, all one year after the other. Our cooperation, our organizations, existed throughout the wars, when any form of communication was very difficult, women remained connected, women's organizations remained connected, to help one another, regardless of national affiliations and our governments, and it continued naturally.

A good part of our region speaks related languages or can be mutually understood, and that connects us in some way because we communicate more easily, and I have to say that we are also very… all our organizations, that is, our six leading organizations in that project and all 29 women's organizations from six countries, we are all very well connected with the two largest European networks, one in Vienna, which deals with violence against women, and the other is the European Women's Lobby in Brussels, which deals with all topics, but also has a section for violence - we are in a constant communication, because what happens in Spain can come to us, what happens in Turkey, can come to us. Or, good solutions from Italy are very important for us, because it is all the same legal space. The European Court of Human Rights sets standards for all of us, for our states, for all members of the Council of Europe, even if we have not ratified this Convention, these are the same standards that are set for all states.

Ana Manojlović
You mentioned Ljubljana and the SOS hotline twice, and this is the perfect opportunity to announce Dubravka Hrovatič from the SOS Hotline for Women and Children Victims of Violence, an organization that was a very important part of the I Sign campaign.

Dubravka Hrovatič, SOS hotline for women and children victims of violence from Ljubljana
Hello from the SOS hotline for women and children victims of violence. We have existed in Slovenia as a non-governmental organization since 1989. Slovenia signed the Istanbul Convention in 2011 and ratified it in 2015. Why was this an important event for us? Because it is the first international document that obliges the state to strive to change social norms through its own mechanisms and to report on them to the Council of Europe.

What happened in Slovenia at that time? The Law on Prevention of Domestic Violence was adopted, which sets some minimum standards that should be guaranteed by the state in access to rights and support, and protection of all victims of domestic violence. Along with the Law on the Prevention of Domestic Violence protocols were also adopted for the conduct of institutions, cooperation and information, and a ban on corporal punishment of children. During this period, the Family Law was changed, the statute of limitations for sexual offenses was extended, and at the moment, laws in the field of rape are being adopted, namely according to the model "Only yes means yes." Accommodation in safe houses for victims of violence was provided, cooperation between institutions was provided, and this year - finally - a 24-hour national line for victims of violence.

The most important realization of this Convention is the duty of all bodies, organizations, and the state, regarding the education of all those involved in the system of assistance to victims of violence. A change in the Law alone would not bring about changes in social norms. All the movements I have been observing lately confirm what Article 3 of the Istanbul Convention states: that violence against women is gender-based violence. Thus, it is made known that, as a rule, violence against women is committed by men, because they learned such behavior in the long history of patriarchy, and that women defend themselves poorly because they were poorly educated about their rights. Our experience shows us that it is important that the state has adopted international acts and at the same time action plans for the implementation of these laws.

In the field of prevention, we notice that it is necessary to enter the contents about violence and awareness about it into the school system. That means integration at all levels of the school system: from kindergarten to college. In the area of assistance to women, it is necessary to ensure that the procedures are fast, that those who decide in the procedures have information about violence, that they do not equate it with conflict, because this can retraumatize the victims; contacts are decided regardless of the violence, and the victim is again exposed to threatening situations. Expert opinions also do not consider domestic violence as an important factor in deciding on contact with children.

In the areas of prosecution and protection measures, greater orientation towards the elimination of perpetrators and control over the implementation of these procedures is needed. It should be mandatory to refer perpetrators of violence to social skills trainings. Withdrawal from the Istanbul Convention would mean weaker protection for victims of violence. Given the number of increased femicides, and reports of sexual abuse, that move would be quite irresponsible on the part of the state.

Ana Manojlović
We have heard how much women know, how much the authorities know about the Convention, and now, can you give us some specific examples from your country when it comes to violating women's rights or promoting violations of women's rights by government officials or some public figures?

Maja Raičević
Of course. We recently had a hate speech in public, extremely sexist, the protagonist of the whole story was a well-known lawyer who is close to the Serbian Orthodox Church. In doing so, I emphasize this, because in this way he, in fact, enjoys a kind of protection of the public and public support, and in his statements, there were elements of crime, since he also mentioned sexual violence in the context of something that is condoned, that is acceptable, that can be tolerated, etc.

However, what is also a problem is a kind of structural discrimination, I would say, of women who report violence by the very inaction of institutions, because if institutions fail to act ex officio or to apply the principle of due diligence and timely response to violence, they engage in some kind of institutional discrimination, and many women complain to us precisely about not getting that timely response and a lot of understanding from those who are there to protect them. So, unfortunately, these examples are numerous.

I would say that one example is the qualification of acts related to violence against women and domestic violence. In Montenegro, for example, and that speaks a lot about this tolerant attitude towards violence, about 2000 cases are processed daily as a misdemeanor - "daily", sorry, annually ...

Ana Manojlović
Now I’m worried.

Maja Raičević
Yes. It is a small country, it would be too much, but there are too many of them as it is, so only 10% go to criminal proceedings and are treated as a criminal offense, which again indicates that institutions are quite tolerant of violence. So, well, I mean, unfortunately, there are always such examples.

Ana Manojlović
Do you have in public any visible violations of women's rights, inappropriate language, insults, anything that could be understood as threatening?

Nada Golubović
Well, I'll just say, it's enough that in the part of Bosnia and Herzegovina where Serbian is spoken, the ijekavian Serbian, where I live, there is no female gender at all. Therefore, I think they are committing systemic violence ...

Ana Manojlović
What do you mean by there is no female gender?

Nada Golubović
There are no female forms. We do not have a female President (female form of the word, translator’s remark) we have a President. The same goes for Heads of Departments. I don’t know… has this changed in Serbia?

Ana Manojlović
We’ve been trying to change this.

Nada Golubović
But with us it is pervasive. And if you tell, say, our President of the entity of Republika Srpska that she is the female President you even insult her in some way. Because simply that part of the Serbian language does not refer to some ... she can be a female cleaner, but she can be neither female President nor female Head of Department. It is flagrant discrimination in public discourse. I think it is similar in the Bosnian language. There are only dual terms in the Croatian language. And since we live in a state where there are three constituent peoples, I think that in all three constituent peoples the religious orientation is a priority, and we have seen that the Church simply considers a female being less valuable, so that is clear cut discrimination.

Secondly, generally, in the highest positions in the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, we have never had a female President but we have always had a male President. The cantons are also mostly dominated by men. We have a female President in the Republika Srpska, however, women who are in high positions, in any part of the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, simply do not treat the women's issue as a priority issue. In general, in order to reach these high positions, they take on the roles that their male colleagues have, and I think that this is already something that is visible at the highest level as absolutely clear discrimination against women in society.

Ana Manojlović
What is the situation like in Serbia?

Tanja Ignjatović
Well, it is similar. So, we can talk about what the image is, what representation in the media and the public is when it comes to women, what Nada talked about, and what is actually support for women and protection of their rights by members of institutions. If, for example, I had to opt for some violations that are obvious, it is that, for example, Serbia has expressed some reservations and extended those reservation for damages, that Serbia does not recognize the damage caused by violence, as a state that has committed itself to preventing violence from occurring and its harmful consequences for women, and this shows a willingness to approach this problem with due care and, in fact, to take responsibility for inaction and adverse conduct. So, the state has not taken responsibility, that responsibility is declarative for the time being.

Serbia has a serious problem, nothing has changed regarding the most serious acts of violence, that is, attempted murder and murder. The number of women killed on an annual basis is not decreasing significantly, it is only lower in those years when we did not have a mass murder, when a larger number of women from one family were killed. Unfortunately, I have to say that the weakest point at the moment is actually supporting women. So, there are no specialized support services well distributed, we still do not have crisis centers for women victims of rape, we still have the weakest procedure, the most difficult procedure when it comes to victims of sexual violence. Here, since the beginning of this year, Serbia has had four serious, big scandals involving sexual abuse, sexual harassment and rape. So, it remains to be seen whether we will systematically improve the way it is handled. We have not changed anything in the education of young people ...

Ana Manojlović
Before you go on about educating young people, I just wanted to ask you, is there something in public life, in public discourse, in the media, related to public figures, and even those in power, that you could point out as an elementary violation women's rights, human rights?

Tanja Ignjatović
Of course. There is something that I believe is the abuse and, in fact, the corruption of women who are in public office, to openly put themselves on the side of those who are suspected of being bullies and abusers, procurers, those who have abused children. So, the least those public figures ought to do is not make statements about it, at least in the sense of not harming the victims. We have an open political classification here. So, those who belong to the same political option, they always in some way, even with neutral statements, protect the suspects of abuse, and when you have a country where such institutions are so weak, it is very dangerous, because what public figures say, that also determines what the institutions will do. Here you have a particular, specific abuse of women, so women are rushing to speak out against the women victims, while protecting the suspects, or those against whom some proceedings have been initiated, with a very clear, calculated policy ...

Ana Manojlović
In this way they influence public opinion.

Tanja Ignjatović
In this way they influence public opinion. In this way, you actually reduce trust in what the victim is saying - when you turn a woman against another woman. If it were men, everyone would say, "Well, yes, they show solidarity on masculine lines." And this is how, in fact, women attack women. In Serbia, it is a mechanism that is used very, very much, because we no longer have this shortage of women in positions. For us, women are in key positions - we have the Prime Minister and the Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, and 40% of women are in the Parliament, but whenever a woman needs to be attacked, other women do it.

Ana Manojlović
We go back to the problem that my colleague also pointed out, and that is that women do not behave like women, trying to protect women, but take on the male roles they had ...

Tanja Ignjatović
That is true, but it is because their positions, at this moment, did not arise autochthonously. They are there because some men have allowed, and chosen them to be there. So, it is this corruption and it is, in fact, undermining the autonomy of each person.

Ana Manojlović
I suggest that we now hear what the situation is like in North Macedonia, and Savka Todorovska from the National Council for Gender Equality will tell us that.

Savka Todorovska, National Council for Gender Equality from Skopje
The Istanbul Convention encourages better policies, services and debates regarding the violence experienced by women and girls, as well as ways in which they can be helped and supported. The I Sign.org campaign contributed and pressured the authorities to ratify the Istanbul Convention in the Republic of North Macedonia, which made important, major steps to increase the protection of women from domestic and gender-based violence, as well as to influence the sensitization of decision-makers. for violence against women and gender-based violence.

At the same time, the impact on the public regarding violence is very important, as well as the basic violation of human rights. Following the ratification of the Istanbul Convention, in December 2017, government institutions developed an action plan for the implementation of the Convention for the Prevention and Combating of Violence against Women and Girls, as well as against Domestic Violence. A new Law has been prepared and measures have been improved, while an institutional system for the protection of victims has been established.

The harmonization of national laws with the provisions of the Istanbul Convention has been established, and amendments to all other laws related to this issue have been drafted. At the same time, standards for the provision of specialized services to victims of gender-based violence have been developed, as well as standard operating procedures in accordance with the Istanbul Convention.

In 2012, together with all of you, we began to work intensively to change and improve the situation related to violence against women, to increase the institutional responsibility and protection of victims, and to help women get out of the position of victims. With the change of the political context, the message of the I sign.org campaign was heard and a large part was filled with the adoption and improvement of the Law, as well as changes in perception and overcoming stereotypes about the position of women in the family and society.

Certainly, some questions and tasks remain open, especially regarding the full implementation of the Law and the Istanbul Convention, as well as regarding the professional attitude of institutional officials and their full sensibility and responsibility in working with victims.

Ana Manojlović
If you had to single out one of the weakest points now, which one would you choose? What is it that needs to be worked on as a priority in the next ten years in order for the situation to drastically improve?

Maja Raičević
Well, I think the biggest change, which is also the weakest point, would be the improvement of protection and support for victims. This means the urgent and effective application of the protective measures available to us, such as the protective measure of removal from the apartment, prohibition on approaching, on harassment and stalking, and all the support that should accompany the actions of institutions in such cases, from psychosocial support to economic support. Social housing service, for example, for victims that would be especially important in these pandemic conditions, when a large number of women have been disproportionately affected by the consequences, and lost their jobs and have no income, and at the same time a large number of them, at least in Montenegro, and I believe also in the region, do not dispose of their own real estate. So, for that matter, in order for the victim to be able to work on her autonomy, to live independently, first of all, that protection and support must be a priority in the work of institutions.

Ana Manojlović
Tanja? One point?

Tanja Ignjatović
All that Maja said, let me just add that this general support for women victims of violence must last for at least two years, for some three years, in order for them to recover and become independent. So, it can't be three months old, and it must include their children. Children witness violence, children victims of domestic violence are invisible to the system, children endure a lot and suffer a lot.

Nada Golubović
My colleagues have said it all now. I might now single out support for women within safe houses, that the state should let NGOs run safe houses and provide them with funding, so that women can also have the opportunity to enter a safe house without notification from social welfare centers, and that the state  support them. I think that now applies to all of us, not to repeat what my colleagues said.

Ana Manojlović
So, to summarize - these are victims, empower victims, empower children, pay special attention to children, and safe houses

Nada Golubović
... that should be run by NGOs.

Ana Manojlović
That will be run by NGOs, of course.

Maja Raičević
Autonomous.

Ana Manojlović
It is the only way to have everything functioning as it should be.

Thank you for speaking for this episode of BeFem Talks, thank you for fighting for years. I really want you to continue to cooperate, not to give up and that the next time we meet, we won’t be talking about the fact that we have to defend our rights by all means, but that we are aware that we have reached something that is taken for granted and is being implemented by the institutions.

Tanja Ignjatović, Nada Golubović, Maja Raičević – Thank you.